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I'm going to archive the race pages section, even though there is still work to be done. It's funny that the Normal Units page should be mentioned because I had been thinking the last few days how easy it would be for me to create a comparison list of the normal units. The thing is that with so many units the list will likely need a page of its own, and there is plenty to say about them on the Normal Units page and the main link to the list would be on that page. Depending on Andrea (the storm), I could possibly post the comparative list within a couple of days. Anyway, just starting the section. MysticX2 (talk) 10:24, June 6, 2013 (UTC)

I intend to include an archtype column, but since I can't tell from the preview if sorting is working this is basically a test, and a request for suggestions.

Unit
Race
Unit
Archetype
Unit
Icon
Unit
Name
Req.
Buildings
Icon Production.png
Cost
Unit
Figs
Unit
Move
Icon Melee Normal.png
Melee
Icon Ranged Bow.png 1
Ranged
Icon Defense.png
Def
Icon Resist.png
Resist
Icon Hits.png
Hits
Unit
Abilities
Barbarian Settlers Unit Icon Settlers Transparent Barbarian Settlers -- Icon Production.png 60* Icon SingleFigureUnit.png 1 Icon Movement Ground1 -- -- Icon Defense.png 1 Icon Resist.png 5 Icon Hits.png ­10 Create Outpost
Barbarian Spearmen Unit Icon BarbarianSpearmen Transparent Barbarian Spearmen -- Icon Production.png 15 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 8 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png 1 -- Icon Defense.png 2 Icon Resist.png 5 Icon Hits.png 1 Thrown 1
Barbarian Swordsmen Unit Icon BarbarianSwordsmen Transparent Barbarian Swordsmen TownBuilding Barracks+TownBuilding Smithy Icon Production.png 30 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 6 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png 3 -- Icon Defense.png 2 Icon Resist.png 5 Icon Hits.png 1 Large Shield, Thrown 1
Barbarian Bowmen Unit Icon BarbarianBowmen Transparent Barbarian Bowmen TownBuilding Barracks+TownBuilding Sawmill Icon Production.png 30 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 6 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png 1 Icon Ranged Bow.png 1 Icon Defense.png 1 Icon Resist.png 5 Icon Hits.png 1 Ability Quiver x8
Barbarian Cavalry Unit Icon BarbarianCavalry Transparent Barbarian Cavalry TownBuilding Barracks+TownBuilding Stables Icon Production.png 60 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 4 Icon Movement Ground2 Icon Melee Normal.png 4 -- Icon Defense.png 2 Icon Resist.png 5 Icon Hits.png 3 First Strike, Thrown 1
Barbarian Shamans Unit Icon BarbarianShamans Transparent Barbarian Shamans TownBuilding Shrine Icon Production.png 50 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 4 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png 2 Icon Ranged Magic.png 2 Icon Defense.png 3 Icon Resist.png 7 Icon Hits.png 1 Ability Quiver x4, Healer, Purify
Barbarian Racial Unit Icon Berserkers Transparent Berserkers TownBuilding ArmorersGuild Icon Production.png ­120 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 6 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png 7 -- Icon Defense.png 3 Icon Resist.png 7 Icon Hits.png 3 Thrown 3
Beastmen Racial Unit Icon Minotaurs Transparent Minotaurs TownBuilding ArmorersGuild Icon Production.png ­200 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 2 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png ­12 -- Icon Defense.png 4 Icon Resist.png 7 Icon Hits.png ­12 Large Shield,+20% To Hit
Nomad Settlers Unit Icon Settlers Transparent Nomad Settlers -- Icon Production.png 60* Icon SingleFigureUnit.png 1 Icon Movement Ground1 -- -- Icon Defense.png 1 Icon Resist.png 4 Icon Hits.png ­10 Create Outpost
Nomad Spearmen Unit Icon NomadSpearmen Transparent Nomad Spearmen -- Icon Production.png 10 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 8 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png 1 -- Icon Defense.png 2 Icon Resist.png 4 Icon Hits.png 1
Nomad Swordsmen Unit Icon NomadSwordsmen Transparent Nomad Swordsmen TownBuilding Barracks+TownBuilding Smithy Icon Production.png 20 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 6 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png 3 -- Icon Defense.png 2 Icon Resist.png 4 Icon Hits.png 1 Large Shield
Nomad Pikemen Unit Icon NomadPikemen Transparent Nomad Pikemen TownBuilding FightersGuild Icon Production.png 80 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 8 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png 5 -- Icon Defense.png 3 Icon Resist.png 5 Icon Hits.png 1 Negate First Strike, Armor Piercing
Nomad Bowmen Unit Icon NomadBowmen Transparent Nomad Bowmen TownBuilding Barracks+TownBuilding Sawmill Icon Production.png 30 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 6 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png 1 Icon Ranged Bow.png 1 Icon Defense.png 1 Icon Resist.png 4 Icon Hits.png 1 Ability Quiver x8
Nomad Priests Unit Icon NomadPriests Transparent Nomad Priests TownBuilding Parthenon Icon Production.png ­100 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 4 Icon Movement Ground1 Icon Melee Normal.png 3 Icon Ranged Magic.png 4 Icon Defense.png 4 Icon Resist.png 7 Icon Hits.png 1 Ability Quiver x4, Healer, Purify, Healing Spell x1
Nomad Racial Unit Icon Rangers Transparent Rangers TownBuilding Barracks+TownBuilding AnimistsGuild Icon Production.png ­120 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 4 Icon Movement Ground2 Icon Melee Normal.png 4 Icon Ranged Bow.png 3 Icon Defense.png 4 Icon Resist.png 6 Icon Hits.png 2 Ability Quiver x8, Pathfinding
Nomad Racial Unit Icon Horsebowmen Transparent Horsebowmen TownBuilding Barracks+TownBuilding Stables Icon Production.png 60 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 4 Icon Movement Ground2 Icon Melee Normal.png 4 Icon Ranged Bow.png 2 Icon Defense.png 2 Icon Resist.png 4 Icon Hits.png 3 Ability Quiver x8
Nomad Racial Unit Icon Griffins Transparent Griffins TownBuilding FantasticStable Icon Production.png ­200 ­Icon MultiFigureUnit.png 2 Icon Movement Air2 Icon Melee Normal.png 9 -- Icon Defense.png 5 Icon Resist.png 7 Icon Hits.png ­10 Armor Piercing, First Strike
Universal Common Unit Icon Catapult Transparent Catapult TownBuilding MechaniciansGuild Icon Production.png ­100 Icon SingleFigureUnit.png 1 Icon Movement Ground1 -- Icon Ranged Boulder.png 10 Icon Defense.png 2 Icon Resist.png 4 Icon Hits.png ­10 Ability Quiver x10,Wall Crusher,Long Range

*additional cost of 1000 citizens

It looks like the sort works...except for the figures, so thoughts or suggestions? MysticX2 (talk) 08:45, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Looking quite good, a table like that will make a great all normal unit list. Perhaps to note on the future page that these are default characteristics unaffected by anything and that producing cost of Settlers includes 1k pop. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 13:45, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Sorting uses abc order. For this sort of thing you'd want to break the norms and use either the SFU or MFU templates for all units, irrespective of figures. The sorting seems useful, though. And I like the archetype column. Spearman D92-R (talk) 16:42, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, I'm not sure that the 1000 citizens is a necessary note, but I've added an asterisk for it. I never thought of using the same template! I may have found a different solution though. MysticX2 (talk) 17:51, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
For some reason the Nomad settlers sort correctly in the prod cost column this way, but the barb settlers do not! MysticX2 (talk) 18:00, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

I tried a different approach and it didn't work, so I'll probably just leave out the hammers in the production cost column. I had considered removing the unit icons, but I'm leaving them for appearance. I'll add the note about the 1000 population cost for settlers, even though it is universal for settlers and not technically a production cost. Any thoughts for additional columns that would be helpful for comparison? If not I'll proceed tomorrow basically with this chart and archive this section once I've posted the chart.

I don't know how long it will take me to write the normal units page, and I've considered posting the chart on that page and moving it to a Comparative List of Normal Units page once I have enough written for the regular page. I'm leaning toward just doing the list and leaving the normal units page until I have it ready. Thoughts or suggestions? MysticX2 (talk) 08:46, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion, sorting should be like that: first of all, the units are sorted by races, perhaps in alphabetical order (by race's name). Second, the units should be sorted by archetype, with shared ones being first and racial units being last. In shared archetypes and racial sorting should be either alphabetical or by unit's order in tech tree (units which can be produced earlier go first). That's just my opinion anyway, but the thing I'm pretty much sure of is inner archetype sorting.
Ah, and, by the way, 1k citizens is a production cost, in fact. Production cost is what is substracted from city's resources when unit is made, as well as required thing for that unit to be made. Remember that Settlers cannot be produced if city has less than 1k population (well, nothing can be produced since there's no city in fact, empty tile or outpost), and Production, measured in hammers, has a special pool in the city. It is proved because if you start investing production into something, then switch to Trade Goods or Housing, wait a few turns, and then start building something again, the production invested already will remain. This can be used to your advantage, by the way, and deserves a note at Strategy page, if we will ever add it.Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 13:38, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
Icon Production.png x doesn't sort correctly? Weird. Instead of archiving please make these topics into their own threads the watercooler, if you don't want them all in this one thread. No reason to archive races yet. Spearman D92-R (talk) 18:27, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
The races discussion is still viewable (and will always be) by clicking the archive link above. As for further discussion I expected that to be done on the respective pages in the talk sections. Or am I misunderstanding? MysticX2 (talk) 20:39, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
Sorting considers Icon Production.png 10 Icon Production.png 100 Icon Production.png 1,000 as being before Icon Production.png 20 and I think that is because the switch is considered text. Still I can't see any reason it won't sort the chart above correctly, but for some reason the Barbarian Settlers (and who knows what else when all units are entered) won't sort correctly in the chart above. It seems I will have to exclude the hammers to get it to sort correctly, and likely the same for the Hits column. Hmm, now that I think about it, the other columns using templates will probably do the same for any value of 10 or above as being before 2.
Since I'm discussing Icon Production.png Hammers, my point about the settler cost is that the population reduction isn't a Icon Production.png Hammers cost, and as such doesn't really apply to that column. Additionally, since all settlers reduce the population by the same amount, it really doesn't add any comparative value or differentiate the settlers any more than they already are.
As for sorting criteria, I think that using multiple criteria will cause longer load and sort times...but I think it can possibly be done. The thing is that adding multiple criteria (a defined sort by column then by race and then by archtype) isn't likely to improve the chart by very much while increasing the creation time by a LOT and as I said longer load and sort times.
I guess I'm going to have to remove most of the templates from the chart and include a request that they not be added by anyone that might want to edit the chart. Thoughts or suggestions? Do I try to use multiple sort criteria or go with the simpler version similar to the chart above? MysticX2 (talk) 19:21, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
LOL, adding a couple of units fixed the problem with the Barbarian Settlers sort?!! However, it does indicate that I'll have the same problem with the attack column as 12 is sorted before 2 as I feared. MysticX2 (talk) 19:56, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
Well, it really does get complicated with numerical values. Maybe items could be forcibly reordered with ALT+0173, which is an invisible placeholder character that might change the ABC ordering of the numbers, but like you say... time-consuming... I guess the sorting thing needs to be reconsidered. Maybe only if particular columns were sortable, like name, race, and archetype. Not being a wikitext guru myself, I have no idea if that is possible. I sure would hate to see the templates go. Spearman D92-R (talk) 22:21, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

No other unit except units from Settlers archetype requires and takes away 1k population, for comparsion. As for alphabetical numbers order, Icon Production.png 0,020 is always before Icon Production.png 1,000. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 02:00, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I was thinking it would be kind of obnoxious to list a production cost as Icon Production.png 020, though, at least if something could be contrived to make it look like Icon Production.png 20 but still sort before Icon Production.png 120 Spearman D92-R (talk) 02:23, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
I'm trying dashes in the attack column, but I see that just looks like negative attacks so that won't work. I think the natural secondary sort is alphabetical anyway, although I don't think it works exactly as everyone would like. I had thought about a number column that would force a certain sort order when used. In the meantime, what are your thoughts about the Figures column, does that work ok for everyone? MysticX2 (talk) 09:02, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
The dashes did fix the sort order, but makes negative numbers, I can probably do them the same as the Icon Production.png Cost column. What are your thoughts about the "duller" numbers like in the Figures column and the Icon Production.png Cost column? MysticX2 (talk) 09:09, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
Yet another option, use the dashes and put a note at the top NOTE - THERE ARE NO NEGATIVE NUMBERS IN THIS CHART, DASHES WERE USED TO PRESERVE THE SORT ORDER. I've added the zeroes to the production column for reference to see how they look. Also, I think I figured out the problem with Barbarian Settlers from before!! What do you think? MysticX2 (talk) 09:28, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
ALT-0173 seems to work. Spearman D92-R (talk) 12:10, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
Is that done with each template? or once at that start? MysticX2 (talk) 15:56, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
And if it is each template, do I just re-enter the numbers? MysticX2 (talk) 15:59, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
I still don't know how that corrected, or made, SFU sort before MFU...but I like it! MysticX2 (talk) 16:11, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
I think I've figured out that I need to use that where the cursor is, and that would mean if I used that before the 'S' in SFU it would have the invisible holder and sort before MFU?! MysticX2 (talk) 16:32, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Nice one with ALT-0173. I don't know why do we need template for a single page, though. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 16:07, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

The templates are already there, since I'm basically combining the army list from each race with a few modifications to get them to sort correctly. I thought it would be easier, but as usual it became a little more complicated than I had thought. Anyway, the ALT is a LOT easier than anything I was trying to do to get the sorts to work the way they should. MysticX2 (talk) 16:56, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
I didn't foresee all these problems when I suggested a sortable list (I swear), but I guess we can follow through with it having invested all this effort. It looks like the dummy character sorts after z in the ordering, so it should be put in once for each magnitude. {{Hits|9}}, {{Hits|_30}}, and {{Hits|__100}} would sort properly. Since {{SFU}} sorts after {{MFU}} regardless of the number, you have to put the dummy outside of and before the template on EVERY multi-figure unit in order to force it, i.e., _{{MFU|6}}. Troublesome, but there you are. Spearman D92-R (talk) 17:35, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
If you want to condense the width of the chart, perhaps replacing the text for the unit abilities with their corresponding icon would be better than eliminating columns. Mouseover the icon would reveal the ability's name. Spearman D92-R (talk) 17:46, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
Oh, my original intent was to sort the columns...it had nothing to do with your suggestion, sorry. :) Ok, I see, so the ALT goes before any number that is not a single digit, or in the production column it would be before any 3 digit number. MysticX2 (talk) 17:59, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, and in the case of even higher disparities (all I can think of right off is town buildings) the Icon Production.png 1,000 wizard's guild would get 2 dummies in order to move it beyond both two- and three-digit buildings. Personally I don't like the way some charts go off the page boundaries and while I wish something could be done, I think this is one case where something can be done to make it tighter. I am big on aesthetics, sorry lol. Spearman D92-R (talk) 18:16, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
Aesthetics are important and a major reason for this section. Any idea if those ALTs can be copy and pasted, or if they have to be entered each time? For example, if copying part of the chart, will the Alts carry over to the paste. Aesthetics is the main reason I was keeping the Icon column, but I think for sorting it might be better to have the Race column first and the Archtype column works so well next to the Race column that it will put the Icons in at least the third column. I think I can gain a few spaces of the width by renaming a couple of columns, and then we will basically have to live with the abilities with the icons. The only one I can think of that I can't use an icon for the ability is the ships for Carry 2 or 5. Thoughts or suggestions? MysticX2 (talk) 20:23, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
I made the order changes so we could see how it would look. Thoughts or suggestions? MysticX2 (talk) 20:48, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
Hmm, I really wish you could sort when previewing! It still uses the icon as the secondary criteria, and I was sure that was because it was the first column before. #$%@ Thoughts or suggestions? xD MysticX2 (talk) 21:11, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
The icon and name could definitely be 1 column, they naturally accompany each other. Also I prefer the name and icon to remain at the beginning on the far left side (personally). The Alts are proper characters and can definitely be copied and pasted, though if you are taking them offline make sure to verify that the document format supports them before closing the browser. I think alt characters are unicode. Spearman D92-R (talk) 22:43, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
Icons in the first column, etc. will work for me...and it will be less work. I like what you did below, especially the background color and I think that may just find its way onto the Normal Units page. :D If I hadn't convinced myself that the catapult and ships had to be included, I'd probably use the icons for the race column too. I even decided on Universal because it puts them after Trolls. :D I'm not sure if I should use the term "Common" for archetype though. Anyway, thanks and nice work below. MysticX2 (talk) 00:29, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

The chart is up, and it is pretty much what I wanted to have in the chart. I am interested in hearing how well it works, or doesn't work, on certain devices. It seems to work fine, without any lag, on my old PC. I don't really know of any way to improve load times without removing data, and I'd rather not do that. I'm glad I didn't use any more images or it would have been worse. :) I'll likely archive this section in a few days, since the page is done. Anyway, let me know how it works for you or if there are any further suggestions. MysticX2 (talk) 08:55, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

I thought of something else, everything on the page (from left to right) displays completely except for High Elves Magicians. How does it look on your devices? MysticX2 (talk) 09:45, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

While it is pretty much a moot point, I had hoped to get an idea of whether my attempt to shorten the width of the list was beneficial or not. Still, I'd like to know what others think about, for example, the abbreviated races or abbreviated column names in the list. Eliminating all of the abbreviations would only amount to 10 more spaces or so on the right side of the list. Any thoughts or suggestions? MysticX2 (talk) 10:29, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I think abbreviations are absolutely okay in that list. Perhaps you could also shorten racial prefixes in unit's name before it's archetype subname. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 14:18, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
Well, that was the reason for my questions above from a few days ago, to see what you could see on the right hand side of the page when it loads. That would tell me if there was any benefit in trying to decrease the width of the page by abbreviating more things. I guess in large part that is determined by font and size settings for everyone, but I thought it would be useful. Abbreviating the name prefixes would decrease the width of the page, but it would also increase the size of the page. Does that make sense? MysticX2 (talk) 18:02, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
Like I said, I thought the icon sorting column was unnecessary. It turned out to be even more unnecessary than I thought, because sorting by icon produced different results than sorting by name (like grouping all settlers between orcs and trolls in ABC order). Plus, pictures are not an inherently sortable objects until they are arbitrarily named or otherwise grouped. Spearman D92-R (talk) 22:09, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
However, unless I misunderstand what you were planing to accomplish, it appears that the change you made does just that, grouping all settlers between orcs and trolls. It also removed the ability to sort in an alphabetic order the unit names, but that ability was probably unnecessary as well (since the berserkers would still sort after the beastmen, for example). I could make the icon column unsortable, since it really doesn't accomplish any reasonable sort (well now it would be the unit column). Is it sorting the way you intended? MysticX2 (talk) 01:07, June 18, 2013 (UTC)
The reason that settlers sort together is that they all use the same icon, the only difference is the link. Other than that the icons almost sort alphabetically anyway, but not quite. MysticX2 (talk) 01:37, June 18, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I saw that.  %$#!!@(%#!@%$^!. I am not sure how to deal with this... if it is possible to make one of the columns unsortable, that would probably be best way. Spearman D92-R (talk) 01:53, June 18, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, to do that I would need to undo your last edit on the page. Ok, I'll do the undo and code the no sort tomorrow. MysticX2 (talk) 02:20, June 18, 2013 (UTC)
I had all but guessed how to do the outline! It is style="border:1px solid #AA6633", I needed the size. :p MysticX2 (talk) 11:45, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

The list seems to draw all the attention, and I think you did a good job. It seems pretty much fine now. Perhaps you should archive that section of Suggestions and we'll post our further suggestions on refining the list at it's talk page. You know, Forum: Suggestions seems to be bigger than that list now. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 16:47, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Anyhoo I whipped this up:

Archetype Chart Edit

Basic bullet point chart for archetypal units

Archetypal Normal Units Racial Availability
Unit Class Citizen Barbarian Worker Citizen Gnoll Worker Citizen Halfling Worker Citizen HighElf Worker Citizen HighMen Worker Citizen Klackon Worker Citizen Lizardmen Worker Citizen Nomad Worker Citizen Orc Worker Citizen Beastmen Worker Citizen DarkElf Worker Citizen Draconian Worker Citizen Dwarf Worker Citizen Troll Worker
Spearmen Light infantry
Swordsmen Light infantry
Halberdiers Medium infantry
Pikemen Heavy infantry
Cavalry Mounted
Bowmen Ranged missile
Shamans Light support
Priests Medium support
Magicians Ranged magical
Engineers Roads & siege
Settlers Outposts
Universal Normal Units
Unit Class Citizen Barbarian Worker Citizen Gnoll Worker Citizen Halfling Worker Citizen HighElf Worker Citizen HighMen Worker Citizen Klackon Worker Citizen Lizardmen Worker Citizen Nomad Worker Citizen Orc Worker Citizen Beastmen Worker Citizen DarkElf Worker Citizen Draconian Worker Citizen Dwarf Worker Citizen Troll Worker
Trireme Light cargo ship
Galley Medium cargo ship
Warship Heavy gunship
Catapult Ranged & siege

A hollow point indicates the existence of a racial unit with identical building requirements but clear points of distinction from the archetype.

Spearman D92-R (talk) 22:43, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

I noticed that Headrock used "!" in the list of items, but it looks like it might be when the "style" changed (such as needing to include "no wrap"). So, two questions, if there are no changes does the "!" do anything and 2) is there a way to change just the borders of cell, or can you just do the background of the entire cell? I hope that makes sense. MysticX2 (talk) 18:14, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
I have no clue on either count. My knowledge of these wiki table syntaxes is limited to what I done on this site using the charts on this site as a guide, and there are a few pages with varying degrees of relevance to wikia scattered on the web, too (haven't seen any complete documentation for wikia though - does it exist?). Spearman D92-R (talk) 22:09, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, that's the thing, they are scattered and I've spent hours trying to find the things I want...and like you I've been trying to utilize the ones available already. Still, I haven't found anything like your Archetype chart. :D MysticX2 (talk) 01:08, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

More discussions Edit

I'm a few days from posting for the Normal Unit page, please wait until you see what is included to make suggestions. :D MysticX2 (talk) 09:57, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

I've reached the point where I really need to see how this looks. After previewing what I have, it is so large I am going to go ahead and post it to the Normal Unit page even though it is not complete. Please make suggestions here, make corrections or re-writes on the page itself unless it is something that needs to be discussed. Remember this page is only as it relates to Normal Units. MysticX2 (talk) 13:31, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

* Need to incorporate Upkeep Costs.

  • Note that Upkeep Costs are 1/50th of normal production costs
  • Used Archetype link instead of icon for non-Racial units to avoid having 14 images in the Swordsmen part of the Town buildings. MysticX2 (talk) 14:31, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

The manual shows that the Alchemists Guild increases To Hit by 10%, and that is noted for the Alchemy retort, but does the building improve To Hit?

In the Normal Units column of the Town Buildings section, would it be better to replace the icons for the universal units with just a link to that unit or leave it as it is? MysticX2 (talk) 20:28, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

I added the Archetype chart, but it can be replaced based on recommendations and then I'll use it on the Normal Unit Archetype page. Thoughts or suggestions? MysticX2 (talk) 21:03, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I've done about all the damage I can do to the Normal Unit page for now. I tried to be concise without being too sterile and I ended up using more tables than I intended, but I think they made the page more readable and maybe even more interesting. I know there is plenty of room for improvement and corrections, and I'm still open to suggestions so what do you think? MysticX2 (talk) 07:50, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

In some cases, less text and more pictures/tables/charts look better. And this is that kind of case for sure, keep it up. Not in the strategy sections however. Regarding strategies, I think we should discuss these here. Everyone could list their strategy suggestions (should involve normal units, even a normal+fantastic unit combo will do). Few examples I can think of are berserk first strike+AP, death trolls, chaos boosting (Chaos Surge on chaos channeled units, really kicks in on Slingers and other 6-8 figure units), etc. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk)
Thanks, I had thought of a couple of those, but I'd also like to avoid making strategies the largest part of the page. I only have two so far, but they don't have to remain...well I guess the FIW should definitely stay, but could be improved. Berserk seems to be a very good choice. What do you mean "death trolls", I had thought about rushed War Trolls? Maybe I should have made the section High figure units instead of Lionheart and included Chaos, etc, and mention several options for that. Nothing is certain yet, I'm still looking for suggestions. MysticX2 (talk) 09:25, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
Death trolls is exactly what it is: death trolls. Trolls with kitty magic. Undeath really saves up their upkeeps and improves their stats while giving some immunities. Regeneration makes up for most of downsides. Berserk is also very good for War Trolls, as Regeneration simply revives them if you win. Consider finding Armsmaster hero though, if you wish to blitzkrieg. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 13:42, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

I had left out Chaos Channel and Undead because they made Normal Units into something else, but now I'm thinking that I should have included another section: Altered Units or something along that line to mention those alternatives. The way you explained death trolls is what I thought you meant by death trolls by the way, but I wanted to be sure. Thoughts or suggestions? MysticX2 (talk) 00:15, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps I should restate that last question for clarity. Would it be better to have a separate section Altered Units to discuss Chaos Channels and Undead, or should it just be part of the already existing Strategy section? MysticX2 (talk) 00:55, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

I think it should go to Strategy section, since Undead and Chaos Channels are basically, special unit enchantments, and all their alterations are listed on their specific pages. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 07:48, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
I am continuing to consider this. I guess my difficulty with Chaos Channels, Lycanthropy and Undead is that the unit cannot be reverted back to being a Normal Unit. I enjoy using the spells, but I'm struggling to resolve the use of them as still being normal units. I can see Chaos Channels and later Chaos Surge as fitting well with that realms strategy, and the same with Black Channels, Lycanthropy, and Zombie Mastery or Undead created by Life Steal as fitting well with that realms strategy. I just don't think it has to be mentioned in every possible case that it could be used. Maybe I should try to get a list and pick 3 or 4 of the best or most popular strategies. MysticX2 (talk) 09:21, July 6, 2013 (UTC)
I'm also having difficulty identifying specific targets for the spells that will make the changed units strong enough to face Rare and Very Rare fantastic creatures or high-end Racial units. My favorite targets for undead are Engineers and Triremes, or even garrisons for safe towns. :D MysticX2 (talk) 09:35, July 6, 2013 (UTC)
Well, Lycanthropy is no way a normal unit thing - it's basically a summoning spell with a sacrifice required (and a few things to exploit for profit). But Chaos Channels and Undeath are still Normal Unit feats. Yes, units cannot be reverted that way, but it's still an enchantment. It just changes unit a little and associates it with a realm. Unit maintains all of it's previous abilities. The main reason, though, is that Chaos Channeled and Undead units are definitely not going to be described fully on Fantastic Units page. Targets... Slingers make great ones, so do many Multi-Figure units. Chaos Channels are mostly used for free flight, though. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 10:29, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

A few comments about the current Normal Units page:

- Halfling units really have a +3 resistance bonus after taking Lucky into account. So if "+10% to hit" is being explicitly listed as a racial normal unit advantage, the resistance bonus should be listed as +3. Alternatively, +10% to hit could be removed.

- The Alchemist's Guild page implies that the Alchemy bonus improves only melee to-hit; ranged attacks do not enjoy improved accuracy. (The discussion of the Alchemy retort should also mention that it's a lot more valuable when starting with a race that can't produce Alchemist's Guilds.) Mind Stormy (talk) 11:43, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I made the updates. I'm wondering if the note about the Alchemists' Guild applies to the Alchemy Retort or if they do have different effects, does one of those two pages need updating or are they correct as they are? MysticX2 (talk) 00:38, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
I'm waiting for more information before I make any further updates to the page. Still open to suggestions too. MysticX2 (talk) 00:24, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
What information? More strategies to put on the page? These can be added as you come up with more of them. The strategies involving normal units aren't usually that gimmicky, involving mostly raw power. Neither they are blitzkriegish if higher-end units are involved. Most popular and effective strategies are magic ones, regarding fantastic units. Such as Wraiths, Gorgons, Invulnerable Enduring Guardian Spirit etc.
I think you don't have to wait for more information on this, and some kind of draft will show us a next direction for our thoughts. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 16:55, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
Hmm, after reading Mind Stormy's comments I may have misunderstood and therefore already had an answer regarding whether or not the Alchemy Retort provided a to hit benefit for ranged attacks. After considering those comments a bit longer I think he is saying that it doesn't. That means the Alchemy (Retort) page and the part on the Normal Unit page where I mentioned that retort needs to be changes. MysticX2 (talk) 00:55, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

page layout Edit

Additionally, I'm not sure the page layout/outline is the best for that page. For example the Primary Attributes section, is it necessary, does it have the necessary information...those questions actually fit most of the sections. There is almost always room for improvement, so I guess that will happen with time and the final product may not look anything like it does currently. MysticX2 (talk) 08:30, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

All sections seem okay, even if Primary Attributes is something common for all units. Ah, and, by the way, I think that in Unit Enchantment chart spells exclusive for Normal Units (excluding Lycanthropy exploit, of course) should be noted with some symbol and a note below the chart. Is there still an arguement whether Undeath and Chaos Channeled belong here? I think they do. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 15:06, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

Enchantments Edit

Since the individual pages for Chaos Channels and Black Channels refer to the spells as Unit Enchantments I am not going to dispute that, and I will put them in the charts.

I am thinking that the spells deserve an itemized mention, but I'm having a hard time seeing them as giving a Wizard enough of a competitive edge to warrant them being a major strategy...in the same light as a Flying Invisible Warship or a Berserked Paladin. Maybe I shouldn't have included Lionheart, even. In part, I haven't had as much time as I'd like for working on this lately. MysticX2 (talk) 01:55, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Cloak of Fear is missing by the way, maybe others. Also, perhaps we should add negative enchantments (unit curses)? Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 16:48, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Should we note that Cloak of Fear does not work right way? Also, what about unit curse section? Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 17:13, July 12, 2013 (UTC)
For now I think the explanations on the cloak of fear page are sufficient. MysticX2 (talk) 07:52, July 13, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. What about Stasis then, as well as spells that have effect on the single unit, but aren't exactly Unit Curse (though behave like one in terms of casting), such as Web? Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 14:58, July 13, 2013 (UTC)
If I follow that line then any spell that might possibly damage a normal unit should also be covered. In terms of casting, do you mean Instant Spells? I'm not entirely convinced that all the spells on the Normal Unit page need to be there, but I am still considering all suggestions.
I have been trying to follow the definition on the Instant Spell page, an Instant Spell may leave a lasting impact on its target, but the spell itself disappears completely. This distinguishes between Instant Spells and the other major spell category, Enchantments. That is part of the problem I have with Chaos Channels and Black Channels. I don't know how far the Normal Unit page needs to go with spells, but it shouldn't become the main focus of the page. I'm still open to justifications, thoughts, suggestions...etc. MysticX2 (talk) 02:37, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
You got me a little wrong: the reason I'm noting Stasis and Web is that they have an enchantment icon on affected unit when you rightclick it. Just like Unit Curses. And the prolonged effect of Web with loss of flying. Stasis is also a prolonged thing, which also makes use of Resistance score, just like Unit Curses. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 03:30, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
It does appear that those two spells fit the definition of Unit Curse. I was going to say that Stasis is considered a "special" spell and targets a map tile, but Black Wind also targets a map tile and is considered a "unit" spell in the game. I am wondering if Web was just overlooked by Headrock as a unit curse, or if I just can't think straight at the moment. He did say, Although it behaves somewhat like a Unit Curse, Stasis runs its course instantly about Stasis, and it seems that the same could be said about Web. I am leaning toward adding them to the chart as unit curses, but I don't want to add them to only have another spell surface for consideration so I'll probably wait a week or so before making the edit...unless I have another edit to make on the page (or decide otherwise). MysticX2 (talk) 09:46, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'm starting to think that I should separate the enchantments and curses and have a section for Combat Effects (title to be determined) which will include Combat Enchantments (such as prayer or black prayer), Curses (since they are all combat), Holy bonus, Leadership...etc. Thoughts, justifications, or suggestions? MysticX2 (talk) 09:33, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Good idea to add other things, but I don't know whether it'll be better to separate these or write it together under the section "Affecting unit's stats from outside" or something like that.
Also, little off-section topic: I wonder that there is no major note on Champion Adamantinum Slingers in Strategy section (only a little hint at Lionheart), who make strategy just by themselves. Like, you pick Myrran+Warlord, plus sufficient amount of Life books (with some Chaos maybe for free flight and Chaos Surge), and start by adamantium mine for a rampage if you will be able to settle it quick enough. Heroism pick makes you able to do that quite early in game. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 14:53, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Unit Abilities Edit

I just realized that I have not included any information regarding Unit Abilities on the Normal Unit page!! Except for a few icons and the First Strike part of the strategy section I have completely overlooked unit abilities. This is a significant oversight which I plan to correct. I was reviewing the page and thinking that it should serve as a summary and a link to significant pages that relate to normal units and... As usual I'll be looking for thoughts and suggestions. :D MysticX2 (talk) 00:41, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking about features (enchantments, abilities, etc.) that are exclusive for Normal Units, and that we should somehow separate these from ones that are used by both Fantastic and Normal Units. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 16:23, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
Were there any specific features that you had in mind? MysticX2 (talk) 00:10, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
First of all, all Unit Enchantments and Curses that can only be applied to Normal Units (Werewolves, Chaos Channeled units and Undead aside). Then exclusive abilities such as Construction, Create Outpost, Negate First Strike etc. The Experience is already present, so I think that's all. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 13:15, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
So you mean to remove Unit Enchantments like Iron Skin and others that can target Fantastic Units too? By exclusive abilities do you mean that exclude heroes too, or just Fantastic Units? MysticX2 (talk) 19:49, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
No, we should just mark those being only "castable" on Normal Units. As for abilities, I don't remember any of abilities available to both Normal Units and Heroes, but unavailable to Fantastic Units. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 09:10, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
I was thinking of Unit Abilities like, Healer, Lucky, and Large Shield, for example. For Unit Enchantments that would not apply to Fantastic Units, like Holy Weapon, Holy Armor, Heroism, Flame Blade, for example (but they can be cast on heroes. I was trying to avoid getting too in-depth with enchantments by using the links for them instead of trying to note this criteria or that exception. MysticX2 (talk) 02:09, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
Oh, how did I miss those? Heroes and NU have many similiarities, so I don't have a clear opinion about these. As for avoiding "in-depth" descriptions, I think that a star above enchantment's name and a note below the chart will do. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 15:29, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
What I'm saying about the enchantments is that their being on the page automatically indicates that they affect normal units and I'm having a hard time seeing why there should be a note about fantastic units at all, since the linked enchantment's page will indicate which type of units they affect. If the page was about fantastic units I wouldn't think that it was necessary to indicate that an enchantment would or would not affect a normal unit or hero. MysticX2 (talk) 20:06, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

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