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Morgana Edit

EvilLoynis pointed out that Morgana doesn't seem to ever have any spells. After checking a couple of other sites it seems that they do not list any spells for her either! This is different than the bug aspect, I believe, because it seems that there is a good chance that Morgana will not have any spells. Does anyone have information to the contrary? MysticX2 (talk) 09:04, May 26, 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that there was nothing probabilistic about the bugged life/death magic hero spellbooks--all spells with internal index greater than 127 (all Death spells, and I think the last 33 Life spells) never appear unless you know them, even when the game designers intended otherwise. Mind Stormy (talk) 12:22, May 26, 2013 (UTC)
So basically all Nature, Sorcery, or Chaos spells should be available to a hero that was intended to have those spells...it is just the Life realm and the Death realm spells that are affected. Thanks Mind Stormy! Ok, are the internal index numbers based alphabetically or by research cost (assuming first by rarity)? MysticX2 (talk) 08:37, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
I have seen Morgana many times, but I never saw her having death spells. The only Life spell I've actively noticed on heroes is Healing. A quote from the 1.40 patch changelog: all human player's and the AI's heroes now can use their spell (Morgana, Ravashack, Torin...). ~ WikiContributor
One thing you may not realize is that this Wiki is really not about Version 1.4+ aka Insecticide Patch mod. It's about the last official release which was V1.31. As of this patch I have never seen Morgana with the spells she had in previous versions unlike the few others who may or may not have them game to game.

This has now been noted on the Caster page and the 4 heroes pages that are affected, Morgana, Torin, Elana, and Ravashack. This section will be archived soon. MysticX2 (talk) 08:27, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Swimming/Sailing Edit

Yeah, that one might have been better as "water" movement, but I think that sailing would still fit in that category. If others think that I should change what that is called, I'll see if I can change it. Would that be better? MysticX2 (talk) 11:51, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

In the game, right click the unit's movement type. That'll bring the list of all possible movement types. I bet that either each one of them should have it's own page, or there should be one page for all movement types, a section for each, so any page mentioning a specific movement type will link to a corresponding section on that page. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 11:57, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, there is a huge number of links to Movement Allowance which seem to be directed from every type of movement. At the same time all movement types have a page except for Sailing as you pointed out. Apparently that type has been avoided entirely, but as you indicated it should probably have its own page. There is an unwritten page for Ships in the wanted list, so that will possibly be where the link should come from. For now, keep this listed so it isn't forgotten. MysticX2 (talk) 12:31, May 12, 2013 (UTC) Also, the movement shown for the Movement Allowance of a ship is the same as shown for other water movement units.MysticX2 (talk) 12:37, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Not the same. Take a look not on the ship's stats, but select the ship overland for movement, and look at ship stack's movement type, near the stack's movement allowance. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 12:45, May 12, 2013 (UTC)
Ok, if I understand correctly, you basically want to make sure there is a Sailing page and that it gets the same treatment as other movement types when that page is written. I see where the sailing icon is shown just above the Patrol option, a gray bar that has Moves: 2 -- Icon. It seems that when I said there should be a sailing page above and it should be itemized on the movement allowance page, you thought there should be more so maybe I'm missing something. Was there more that you wanted to see? MysticX2 (talk) 10:13, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
Also the Swimming/Walking (as noted in our pages) should be replaced with just Swimming, and Swimming should be replaced with Sailing, because in our wikia, at almost every page which has a note on water movement, these are incorrectly described (since there was no note on Sailing type). So just adding the type page is not enough, we should revise the movement types mentioned on unit pages. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 10:46, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
That's what I thought you were saying before. That is a MUCH bigger deal, and I will have to first determine if I can even do that without recreating pages and templates. Currently the movement types are ground, water, and air. Swimming may have been over used in some cases, but I'm not sure that changing it wouldn't cause some confusion since the more noticeable unit info lists the movement for ships the same as it is currently shown. If you hadn't brought it to my attention I don't think I would have even noticed the other icon. Still, I haven't heard what anyone else thinks about this issue either. MysticX2 (talk) 11:08, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

Just to make sure we are looking at the same things:

20130524-074343
20130524-074227
20130524-074306


MysticX2 (talk) 12:01, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I want, that movement chart in game corresponding to our wiki's movement types. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 12:10, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

That's a very small part of what you apparently want. As I suggested above, keep this listed and the two pages will be written. Obviously not soon enough for you, but bringing it up again isn't going to get them written any sooner.
The other things you want, it seems that you want to remove the ground movement from pages like Lizardmen (I'm guessing since you haven't mentioned any specific pages). I'm still not convinced that this is necessary and I haven't heard any other thoughts about this.
...should be replaced with just Swimming, and Swimming should be replaced with Sailing, because in our wikia, at almost every page which has a note on water movement, these are incorrectly described (since there was no note on Sailing type). So just adding the type page is not enough, we should revise the movement types mentioned on unit pages. The idea of replacing swimming with sailing, I still don't understand what you think this accomplishes. There are 4 units that I can think of that use sailing. Even those 4 units show the "swimming image" on their info page in the game. So I still don't understand how almost every page discussing water movement is incorrect, What am I missing? MysticX2 (talk) 09:27, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
That's important. To make sure you get the difference: Swimming units can enter both land and water tiles. That is movement type for Lizardmen and NC units, as well as for walking ones imbued with Water Walking spell. And Sailing units cannot enter land tiles, they only move at water tiles. That's an important difference, you see. We also should create "movement hierarchy" to note which movement type overrides other ones, and which movement type will set a restriction for the stack. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 09:50, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
The hierarchy would be a good section for the types page, and the sailing page would explain the movement, and the movement allowance page would likely discuss the effect on a stack if not sufficiently covered on the other two pages. I get that ground excludes any water movement, as does mountaineer, forester, etc. and that sailing is limited to water movement. But if you are suggesting that because sailing is limited to water it should be the default water movement, as it seems you are, that is where I fail to see the necessity of that change and I think it would be more confusing than anything I can find on water movement currently on the wiki. Even the unit info screens, like the image above, uses the swimming icon as the moves to indicate the ability for water movement. Sailing only applies to a small number of units, and maybe changes are in order on those pages, but I still think that the unwritten pages may be enough. MysticX2 (talk) 10:26, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
One example of how these are incorrectly described might be helpful. MysticX2 (talk) 09:43, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
Should I provide the movement type hierarchy I've got in mind?

That's what I want. Still, you don't get that in game, swimming movement picture doesn't always correspond to swiming - on sailing units for example. And the problem on most pages is that the very existence of Swimming/Walking movement type on our wiki is complete nonsence and bullshit! They only swim, Swimming is their type, of ones who currently got nonexistent Swimming/Walking. As for sailers, you just put sailing as their movement type. As for Mountainneer and Forester, it's different. Mountainneer, Forester, Pathfinding and Planar Travel are additional types of movement. They never restrict something, they just either affect how does unit spend it's movement allowance or add a new ability to that unit. And any of these except Planar Travel is applied to whole stack. So, the main movement types are Walking, Sailing, Swimming and Flying, while additional ones are Forester, Mountainneer, Pathfinding, Planar Travel, and, in some way, although not not noted anywhere as a type, NC. Wind Walking is something between the two, which is basically the Flight that applies to stack like Pathfinding and has some additional properties. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 10:53, May 25, 2013 (UTC) So: the change is needed because Swimming/Walking is a complete, nonexistent, dead, nonanimate, unreal nonsence and bullshit. If we correct it's existence on our wiki by vaporizing it and leaving only swimming behind, it will look like boats have the same movement type as lizardmen, which is wrong. So we should distinguish it by setting Sailing for boats. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 11:04, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not really seeing the earth-shattering consequences. The pages for swimming units are already clear about them being able to move over land and sea tiles. Notes like "Swimming/walking" are just like the redundant information about Unit Abilities pasted on every page whose unit possess the ability. They are meant to be "from-the-ground-up" explanations of certain rules which minimize the number of extra pages people would have to look at to get the information. Spearman D92-R (talk) 13:45, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
If I understand it, the movement types (after you remove abilities that enhance movement) are walking, swimming, sailing, and flying. Walking is restricted to ground movement and from water movement, swimming moves on either terrain, sailing is restricted to water movement and from land movement, and flying moves over any terrain. When a swimming unit, such as a lizardman is on land, the movement type isn't changed because the default movement for a swimming unit on land is walking (but is not indicated in the game). If we use our current types, they are walking, swimming (with two very different types), and flying.
There are two parts to the argument, and they sort of become circular. First that sailing should be a separate type from swimming because it is restricted to ocean terrain. And, second that swimming moves on all terrains without changing its movement type, therefore the use of swimming/walking is not necessary and is (see above) and just wrong. I keep looking at swimming/(walking (restricted from water)) and swimming/(sailing (restricted from land)), and sometimes think it might work better to make the changes, but I also think that it is working (most of the time) and has worked the way it is, so I'm still looking for thoughts or additional input. Twilight has a lot of good information, so I keep trying to understand her thoughts on this, but so far I haven't seen enough to make the changes. MysticX2 (talk) 17:00, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
The things that keep me from making the changes are that on the unit info there are only the three types of movement. All the other listed movement types on the help except sailing are abilities or enhancements to those three types of movement. Cavalry and Heroes use walking even though they are riding. Merging units use walking, teleporting use ground or air and are not on the help list. I've already lost several days with this that I had intended to work on something else. However, I still can't seem to present an argument that is convincing, but until at least one of us is convinced this will likely be a continuing discussion, so I continue to look for thoughts and suggestions. MysticX2 (talk) 17:54, May 25, 2013 (UTC)
There are four main movement types, not three, I hope that picture of main movement type hierarchy in my mind will convince you (though, my drawings with mouse are, well, "not so good", and the picture hosting is russian) http://s2.ipicture.ru/uploads/20130526/UsnxtGwF.png .
I tire of diplomatic negotiations. If that doesn't convince you, let's drop the subject until I post a draft on exploit section at Roads. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 13:04, May 26, 2013 (UTC)
I think we may have been discussing the wrong things. These are indicators of terrain and the default movement on that terrain: Icon Movement GroundGround, Icon Movement WaterWater, Icon Movement AirAir. The templates were created in an effort to combine the indicator and the default movement type, making it simpler to indicate both in a quick, small icon. Until now there hasn't been any confusion as to how they are used, but it seems that the use of the default movement may be the crux of the matter. The default movement is used simply because a larger number of units will use that movement on that terrain.
The list in the image on the right above is a list of most movement types, and those determine the limitations or improvement of the movement. These movement types are normally indicated in the infobox of the unit on this wiki, separate from and further down from the terrain indicators. These icons are not used as often as the terrain indicators, and in fact have been left off of the 4 units that have the movement type of Sailing. There is no doubt that there should be a sailing page, and I suppose the 4 units should get their icon that indicates movement type. There will be a movement type page, and that page will likely discuss hierarchy of those types and the effect on stacks of units.
As for the use of the templates on the lizardmen pages, these are still indicators of the terrain and default movement on that terrain. Again the problem may be that they don't have the icon in "Unit Abilities" that indicates their movement type as swimming. The use of the ground template plus the water template is still just an indicator of the terrain they can move on, and I don't see that as the creation of a non-existent movement type. I can see adding their movement type in the Unit Abilities, and giving them their movement type icon.
If more people think that the default movement should be removed from the templates used to indicate movement on certain terrains, that might be possible, but for now I will wait to hear from others. MysticX2 (talk) 09:44, May 27, 2013 (UTC)
Ah, so the system on the wikia is itself different from what I was thinking. Then it should have noted Ground/Water, not Swimming/Walking. I've got confused because of that, these "indicators" you are talking about are named the same as movement types are. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 13:32, May 27, 2013 (UTC)
In source mode it does note Ground/Water, for example the three templates above are written {{Movement|Ground|Ground}}, {{Movement|Water|Water}}, {{Movement|Air|Air}}. The Movement is the number of moves a unit can make and that last switch is usually a number, most often 1. The second part is the terrain, and then as noted the last switch is usually a number but can also include text that describes something.
For example, {{Movement|Water|4 Sailing}} looks like this Icon Movement Water4 Sailing. In addition, the default "movement type" is shown if you hold the mouse over the template, and the default movement type fits over 98% of all units, the main exception is the 4 sailing units. That is why you see "swimming" if you hold the mouse over the template that I just used, because that is the default (again defined as - it fits more units that can move on that type of terrain) movement type.
To "fix" that I would have to remove the default movement type and then it would show Ground/Water/Air when you hold the mouse over the template icon. That would also mean that over 98% of the pages that use those templates would probably need to be updated manually in their articles, not necessarily in the infobox, to show their movement type. That seems like a drastic measure to change something that works pretty well otherwise. MysticX2 (talk) 07:58, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
It may cause confusion though. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 10:16, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
It will likely cause much more confusion to change it, but I think a well written Movement Type page will take care of it and a well written Sailing page. Still, I'll put it on my hierarchy of things to look at list...I should be able to get to it sometime in the year 2015 maybe, but that assumes that I get faster at these things. :D MysticX2 (talk) 11:51, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
I said that wrong, before I consider changing several hundred pages there will be no doubt about whether confusion is created by the current situation. There's a reason I didn't become a doctor, I find over 98% acceptable. :D MysticX2 (talk) 15:01, May 28, 2013 (UTC)
Archive that section then. It's not going out for quite a while. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 07:15, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

Spell Books Edit

The following is a suggestion from SpreadSheetNinja.

I found that this information is already on the wiki! Page Spell Rarity contains this information. Is there somewhere else that this should be included? MysticX2 (talk) 08:40, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

SPELL RANKS
Number of

spell Books

Total Common

Spells

Total Uncommon

Spells

Total Rare

Spells

Total Very Rare

Spells

Number and Type of

Guaranteed Spells

Casting \ Research

Cost Reduction

1 3 1 0 0 0 + 0 + 0 + 0
2 5 2 1 0 1 + 0 + 0 + 0
3 6 3 2 1 2 + 0 + 0 + 0
4 7 4 3 2 2 + 1 + 0 + 0
5 8 5 4 3 2 + 2 + 0 + 0
6 9 6 5 4 2 + 2 + 1 + 0
7 10 8 6 5 0 + 2 + 1 + 1
8 10 10 7 6 0 + 0 + 1 + 1 -10 %
9 10 10 9 7 0 + 0 + 1 + 1 -20 %
10 10 10 10 10 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 -30 %
11 10 10 10 10 2 + 1 + 1 + 0 -40 %

Hmm, looks like we will need to rework the spacing to keep it from overlapping. MysticX2 (talk) 09:07, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

It seems that this type of information would be included in the spellbook page, but I haven't really focused on that recently. The first thing that comes to mind is that it relates mostly to starting a new game and also maybe retorts and wizards. I'll try to do an outline, but in the meantime...any other suggestions for the spellbook page? MysticX2 (talk) 10:31, April 28, 2013 (UTC) This will soon be archived, the information is on the Spell Rarity page. MysticX2 (talk) 08:27, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Realm PagesEdit

A sneak peek on not-coming-soon Realm pages. Would be nice to discuss the possible structures of these. Personally, I think that general realm specialization should be described, then some basic strategy given. Realm+Realm combinations should be included (as advanced strategies). List of Realm spells should be either merged with Realm page or copied into it in some way. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 10:34, May 7, 2013 (UTC)

While I don't have a clear picture of these pages at the moment, I'd love to see what your thoughts are. I don't know about merging or moving the list of spells...although that is likely going to be the end result. For one thing I think that the spells that appear on the main page are chosen from that list, which would mean that it would need to remain in any case, but the spells will probably also need to appear on the realm pages. Talking strategies could take so many directions, did you have an example in mind? Anyone else have ideas about these pages? MysticX2 (talk) 10:59, May 7, 2013 (UTC)
Well, we can keep Spell List pages for the needs of main page, but redirect to Realm pages, where that list will be placed, if the pages are to be merged. About strategies: basic strategy is based on Realm's description, common things like "Life is good if you rely on normal units". Advanced strategy includes any special realm advices, 11 book strategies and combos with spells from other realms, as well as Realm+Retort combos. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 09:14, May 8, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, 11 book strategies are a good idea. I don't mean to suggest that any of the other things you mention here are bad or not a good idea, just that 11 book strategies are a definite. You almost have to have a list of the spells on the main realm page. Unlike Headrock, I can't pump out two complete pages or more a day (even if I spent all my time writing). Right now I'm trying to figure out the things that need to be done and in what order. I redirected some pages, like Orc to Orcs, and that has cut down on the list of pages needed. Some pages can be redirected once another page is written, but in the meantime they will stay on the list. Anyway, more good ideas...keep them coming! MysticX2 (talk) 09:28, May 8, 2013 (UTC)
Well, I think that you guys should finish with release candidate Race pages drafts, so we get to polishing them. Once polishing is done, we could get to Realms. Roads page will be created as well, by the way, as soon as Spearman will switch his attention off the Race pages. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 12:31, May 8, 2013 (UTC)
lol, Patience young one, we will get there. Remember most of this is done in "spare" time. I'd like to be done with it too, but every time I start one I find some little changes that have to be made. Keep the ideas coming and we might catch up with you before too long. :D MysticX2 (talk) 18:15, May 8, 2013 (UTC)


Categories Edit

On the Chaos Node page there is a misspelled category, my only option appears to be "Add" category. I tried undoing the changes before the error occurred, but you can only "undo" one edit. Am I missing something, maybe because I'm not editing in Visual Mode?! MysticX2 (talk) 09:03, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

Try to delete the category itself, I think Admin can do that. Twilight Sparkle the Alicorn Princess (talk) 10:13, May 6, 2013 (UTC)
No, tried that. :D MysticX2 (talk) 10:16, May 6, 2013 (UTC)
I thought about deleting the Chaos Node page and reposting it, but that seems a bit ridiculous to get rid of a misspelled word! MysticX2 (talk) 10:19, May 6, 2013 (UTC)
Ok, got it! Switched to visual, had to change preferences, and it gave me the option. MysticX2 (talk) 10:25, May 6, 2013 (UTC)
The option was there in my regular edit mode, I just forgot about that little arrow! *shakes head* MysticX2 (talk) 10:30, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

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